As you guys may remember, back in the days of T3, df+4 was an absolute beast of a move.

It had long range, hits mid, was safe on block, and came out quicker than a demon. Used in conjunction with the 1 poke, it created much pressure on your opponents.

Even after it was toned down successively in T4-5 (I think it comes out a bit slower now) the move remained incredibly useful as a long range poke.

But now... with the advent of df+1, we have the SAVIOUR FIST! It almost has the same range as df+4, comes out quicker, and is safe on block!

Tell me what you think about this move.

Interestingly enough, I would have never thought of naming that DT+1 the Saviour Fist.

His DT+4 is still king in my book, but it does come out 1/5 slower.... You DO get a quicker attack option with DT+1, but that advantage comes with the price of distance. Ending up in Frame Advantage with both moves doesnt hurt either.

I do have to say that Tekken 6 is certainly a 1/5th slower than previous Tekkens' and Yoshimitsu must keep his zoning up in order to be successfull. Usually a 1.5 character distance works best as none of his pokes have quick frame startup (At least from what I feel as I play). Ive lost plenty of battles trying to win poking games in close, but as soon as I backed up and attempted to mix things up, my Yoshimitsu began to shine.

And speaking of Saviour Fist, Ive been playing around more with fake lead-ins using B+2 or DB+1 and mixing it up by either interrupting your opponent out of something or finishing the enitre move string as you end up safely off of a block. Works great.... when Lag isnt around.

RELEASE THAT DAMNED PATCH ALREADY.....

-Saikoro

This post was edited by Saikoro (2009-11-07 21:39, 10 years ago)

well, the actual name is tsuki atemi (hitting something with the sword handle)

but i think the saviour fist is a more fitting name because it saves you from getting owned!

In a situation where you are under intense poking pressure, you have two options.

1. Flash. This is risky because its likely to whiff, doesn't help with low attacks.
2. Saviour fist. Its got range, its fast, its safe on block.

kalorful : In a situation where you are under intense poking pressure, you have two options.

1. Flash. This is risky because its likely to whiff, doesn't help with low attacks.
2. Saviour Fist. Its got range, its fast, its safe on block.

Flash is harder to use as its hitbox timing and range have been reduced. The attack is much more instantaenous with a smaller window of opportunity. However, that doesnt mean its less effective. Its just that much harder to use. Youve gotta be EXACT on your timing just as if youre using Kazyua/Heihachi's just frame uppercuts (T~D~DT+1/2) or Paul/Asuka's reversals (B+1+3/B+2+4). Its great for suprising the hell out of your opponent that leads to a crumple state opening up lots of great attacking opportunities. Some Faves, all based off of the move connecting, are:

DT+1+2,2
B+2,1
DB+3,3,3,3,3,4 (Three out of the 5 hits connect, 4 pushes opponent back)
T+4 (Awesome for Distancing!!)
1,1
UT+4

Saviour Fist is indeed awesome and Im glad you brought that one up. However, you must remember that Yoshimitsu is completely useless immediately next to your opponent. Steve and Bryan own Yoshimitsu face to face, but that changes once Yoshimitsu is at least one Character Distance away. I always say that he has really great Lead-In moves that draw you in close upon execution that also work well as counter/interrupt/retaliation attacks. Never go toe to toe. Give yourself space and that Saviour Fist works amazingly well.

I would also like to add in that the Saviour Fist works tremendously well for a slight juggle lifter after Bound State opens up. I gotta play around with this one more so I can give some better, in-depth commentary.

-Saikoro

Never really thought about character spacing in Tekken... I thought Yoshi is still pretty decent up close? Flash + saviour fist for poking at close range.

But I'd have to agree with your assessment that mid range (one character space away) opens up a lot more opportunities with Yoshi, including more effective use of ff+4 to open up juggles, and the relatively safer use of uf+3 and df+2,2.

Character spacing is all too important to Yoshi in T6, he has never really been great against bulldogs, but the nerfing he got in T6 made him worse. I'm all for Yoshi having a great distance game, but if your opponent knows this weakness he will exploit it at every opportunity!! More options up close are required so we aren't so predictable to skilled players... I also think they should make some changes in his throwing game, time for an objective look by the creators at his balance issues. Sorry for busting off topic... Yoshi's Tsuka Atemi is a great move and crucial to his game post bound. It's like his side kick which has also remained very useful for poking in T6. I must say that I am pleased also with his increased options in BT stance, also I love the animations for Gehosen (f,n,d,d/f+1), it looks sweet and it has uses.

Yoshimattsu : Character spacing is all too important to Yoshi in T6, he has never really been great against bulldogs, but the nerfing he got in T6 made him worse.

Remember.... Bulldogs are rightfully quoted for their Biting Range, a Dog's not going to bite your ass if youre not in close: Leave that range and your opponent is worthless. Drawing in close again?? Counter/Mix up with Lead-Ins to keep out. If your low parries and anticipation techniques are on par, this closing in for more Bulldogging is not going to matter as many like to sneak in low hits to open you up like a can of Worms (Asuka's DB+3 Spin and Bryan's DT+3 Low Sweep come to mind immediately). I like to consider Matches as a form of momentum: Pick it up and it rolls in your favor, lose it, and you stop. And stopping in Tekken 6 means losing.... losing BAD in Yoshimitsu's case. And I could only count two nerfs off of the top of my mind:

1 - His Knee Cap.... Once his best overall used counter now has a slow frame startup with a BT (Back Turned) state on finish. What the hell?? Yes, D+1 or a UT+4 works great to follow through with BT, but the Knee Cap is useless unless if I can telegraph an opponents attack. :((

2 - Sword Strikes.... A Blockable Sword except his Moonsault Slayer and [WRONG NAME] Sword Trip?? WHAA?!?! Ive spoken on this before, so I will leave it at that. Your Key for success here is anticipation for a counterattack and mind games (Like Sword Tripping on Ukemi or either UT+3+4 or UT+1/2 on a downed opponent). Nuff' said!!

I'm all for Yoshi having a great distance game, but if your opponent knows this weakness he will exploit it at every opportunity!! More options up close are required so we aren't so predictable to skilled players... I also think they should make some changes in his throwing game, time for an objective look by the creators at his balance issues.

I disagree with you there.... his throwing game is rather interesting while somewhat limited. Consider his basic throws that every character has (Left/Right, SideStep variants and Rear). Then add in his Rainbow Drop and Soul Siphon (Did I get the Name right?? QCT+2....) and he basically has the same ammount of throws that every other standard character has. You want throw Mixups?? Play King or Dragunoff. Yeah, it would be nice to have some Crouching throws (As those would fit him nicely), but Yoshi has plenty of Crouch Wake-Up games to begin with (Saviour Fist, Door Knocker, WoodCutter, that B+2 move that I cant name, etc.) that could possibly lead to throw openings. One tremendous throw setup are his high/mid Spinners (B+1,1,1,1,1 or DB+2,2,2,2,2 respectively) that work quite well. In the end, your throwing game varies on your opponents ability to read you along with your own creativity. Playing an expert?? Change up your game by throwing sparingly or not at all or youre seriously in Kahoots!! With that said, a great Tactic is throwing someone right out of an Ukemi.... Scrubs go down like Whores on that one....

Sorry for busting off topic... Yoshi's Tsuka Atemi is a great move and crucial to his game post bound. It's like his side kick which has also remained very useful for poking in T6. I must say that I am pleased also with his increased options in BT stance, also I love the animations for Gehosen (f,n,d,d/f+1), it looks sweet and it has uses.

Not at all Matt, no need to apologize. By the way, is that Tsuka Atemi his 3~4?? That move kicks some serious ass as it sneaks in like nobodies buisness. And it takes up a 1/4th of the screen for crying out loud!! As far as the Gehoshen goes, try pulling that one off on the 360 pad.... :con

Awesome Discussion. Keep your input coming!! This is proving quite usefull!!

Sincerely,
-Saikoro

This post was edited by Saikoro (2009-11-10 16:32, 10 years ago)

Tsuka Atemi is the move some of you are calling "saviour fist".. I was only agreeing that it is very useful especially post-bound... His 3-4 is called Tobi Ushiwaka. I don't envy you with the 360 D-Pad and Gehosen.

I'd have to disagree with you on the knee cap 'nerf' Saikoro...

whilst it took me quite a while to get used to the lack of the 8 frame long ranged mid knockdown, the fact that for a few frames more it now comboes into a SEVENTY damage juggle definitely makes it a buff in my books.

Lets take a look at Yoshi's juggle starters
1. df+3. crushes high (when done from crouching) and low, punishable on block. This move used to be king in T5 but now it doesn't offer as much damage on juggle as kneecap which is quicker and juggles for more damage.

2. DF+2, 2. Decently quick to come out, but gets punished like a whore on block. Highest damage juggle out of all the starters though at 75.

There's also sword sweep which I put at around 55-60 damage. Unblockable low, though slow to come out.

Knee cap beats all of them as it's hard to punish on block. Jab punish = duck, mid punish = bt 1 or just turn around and block. low punish = BT 3, and its got INSANE range for a juggling move.

Savior fist? I just call it body blow. It's a generic name and most people know it as body blow. It's so people know exactly what I'm talking when I tell them the move, easier for me anyway.

And I believe you guys are talking about Fubuki which is ff+4. Knee cap is FC df+4.

kalorful : I'd have to disagree with you on the knee cap 'nerf' Saikoro...

Whilst it took me quite a while to get used to the lack of the 8 frame long ranged mid knockdown, the fact that for a few frames more, it now combos into a SEVENTY damage juggle definitely makes it a buff in my books.

Ah.... I shall have to attempt to use the Knee Cap a bit more often. Its just with that goddamned LAG.... the Knee Cap is harder to use online but works decently offline. I will practice a bit more and get back to you on this. It just sucks that we cant use it as often as we used to. At least in my book anyway.

Lets take a look at Yoshi's juggle starters....

1. df+3. crushes high (when done from crouching) and low, punishable on block. This move used to be king in T5 but now it doesn't offer as much damage on juggle as kneecap which is quicker and juggles for more damage.

Isnt UF+3 his juggle starter?? I do like to add in DT+3 as a string in a combo of sorts, and it absolutley suprises the hell out of a crouching opponent for sure.

2. DF+2, 2. Decently quick to come out, but gets punished like a whore on block. Highest damage juggle out of all the starters though at 75.

Punishment for this is justifiable by only a certain few characters with quick retialiation attacks, like Paul's D+1+2 and Jack's DT+3+4. If you see the block coming, simply use B+2 only. Distancing on the end of this move is about 30% concern.

There's also sword sweep which I put at around 55-60 damage. Unblockable low, though slow to come out.

Ah, the Ukemi Killer. I used this one rather frequently in Tekken Tag and Tekken 5. It works just as efficiently here with a slightly slower startup. One of my faves now, while being rather risky yet awesome for poking just at the tail end of its reach is UT+2. Awesome for Ukemi's as well, if not just an excellent wake-up move.

Knee cap beats all of them as it's hard to punish on block. Jab punish = duck, mid punish = bt 1 or just turn around and block. low punish = BT 3, and its got INSANE range for a juggling move.

Hmmmm.... I gotta mix these tactics into my game. Well said Kalorful!!

Awesome discussion,
-Saikoro

Yes Grey they are talking about Fubuki when they say kneecap. I think we should all agree on either using the move name listed on the game, or a widely used generic term. Like Flash for example, everyone that uses Yoshi knows what move this is, even though it's not called Flash. But some moves, like the new ones with Japanese names, should probably be listed with the notation next to it in ( ). It would help with some of the confusion I think some people are having.

(oops i meant uf+3 for the rising knee)
Yes all of the above are great moves, however all of the above also dissolves during high lag situations where the most effective move/mixup is the one discovered by me and proposed by our good forum leader

mixups
db+3,3,4
db+3,3,3,4
db+3,3,3,3,4

then repeat

sigh waiting for patch atm~

I must disagree with the opinion that Yoshi was never good against bulldogs. Wrong... I had no problem with bulldogs whatsoever in past times. Not any. But now Yoshimitsu has some serious issues with bulldogs, because some of his moves that should normally high-crush are bugged.

Like Roo Kick: 4~3. I've been hit with high kicks out of this move. WTF?
Not to mention SS+1, my prime weapon against punch abusers. These moves are extremely hard to use in higher level, and if somebody says that it's what makes Yoshi an expert character, I'd say it's a wrong design and bugged crush frames. I shouldn't be penalized only because my character's moves aren't properly designed. If I guessed right and I want to high-crush, I should always high-crush, not count for good luck.

I also disagree that Yoshimitsu is stronger in Tekken 6 BR. Stronger juggles? Ok. But overally stronger? Nope. If you refer "stronger" as "more competitive", Yoshimitsu doesn't have anything that makes him a more competitive character than in previous Tekkens.

Safe launcher? Nope. (only in NSS stance)
Good punishment? Nope.
Good whiff punishing? Severely nerfed from Tekken DR.

Also, his low sweep kick that has TOO BIG disadvantage on block as for a move that doesn't juggle on Normal Hit (it should be safer)...

If you want to know what your Yoshimitsu is made off, participate in Tournaments. I have heard that there's a national Tekken Tournament taking place now in the US, you're going to participate? It's the only way to test your skills. No online play will prove it. Online players are mostly noobs, like 70% of noobs, casuals and pretty advanced. Tournaments though, are hard-core. You'll find there 70% of expert players.

Find information about USA Nationals at sdtekken.com or tekkenzaibatsu.com, I'm sure there's plenty info about it.

This post was edited by Tenshimitsu (2009-11-12 10:01, 10 years ago)

doesn't ff+4 punish whiffs well enough?