Yoshimitsu Bound/Tactics Discussion

Ive done lots of Google searches and couldnt find a damned thing except for a few Videos and some Forum Posts.

So how exactly do bound combos work?? What initiates them?? How much of an effect does Damage Dampening have here??

As you can see, Im looking for a good technical response with perhaps a Yoshimitsu Tekken 5DR and 6BR example.

-Saikoro

This post was edited by Saikoro (2009-11-05 17:01, 8 years ago)

Hello Saikoro! BOUND eh? I've been playin T6BR a lot! (when i say a lot, IT REALLY IS A LOT!!!) although just in the arcades...

Im doin good on BOUND juggles... well, its like this... BOUND combos start if a BOUNDing move was used... a better way is to use a BOUNDing move as the juggle ender on a juggle... The BOUND allows us too continue our combos/juggles after one since if your opponent is BOUNDed, then they will somewhat hit the floor and bounce a small length upward, which means you can continue doing a combo after your opponent was BOUNDed...

one good example of a Yoshi juggle with BOUND is " u/f+3, 1, b+1,1,1,1, f+1+2, d+2,1 "

explanation of juggle given: u/f+3 serves as our juggle lifter... 1 and b+1,1,1,1 serves as our contolling (i dont really know what you call it, its like the one which allows you to control your opponent to stay in the air)... Take note about the f+1+2 coz its the BOUND move in which while the opponent is in the air, you somewhat smash your opponent down to the ground and BOUNDs... d+2,1 then serves as our combo after the BOUND in which Yoshi somewhat punches then does a somewhat lifting slash...

there... BOUNDing... it isnt that complete... but I think this would do for now... ask another question if you have one!!!

Hmmmm....

So the term "Bound" simply describes an opportunistic combo during a certain hitstate. I likes. Now I gotta Practice.

Yoshi8861, You gettin the 360 or PS3 version of Tekken 6??

-Saikoro

Well said!! I have seen many complaints about the bound system, but, from what I have seen of it, it looks pretty cool. I know some people wouldn't like to see even more ways to extend agonizingly long combos, but I think it forces all of us to up our games and get with the times. The Bound and Rage systems have gotten their fair share of criticism, but in the end I have a feeling we will all come to accept and value these improvements...

Yoshimattsu : Well said!! I have seen many complaints about the bound system, but, from what I have seen of it, it looks pretty cool. I know some people wouldn't like to see even more ways to extend agonizingly long combos, but I think it forces all of us to up our games and get with the times. The Bound and Rage systems have gotten their fair share of criticism, but in the end I have a feeling we will all come to accept and value these improvements...

Thanks!!

Yoshi8861 put it best as Ive been looking at some more YouTube Videos of High Skill Play.... and I can now spot that opening of sorts every single time. This awesome video I just spotted shows some really impressive Law and a few Armor King Bound System Combos that feature some Juggles. A few examples to look for include:

Armor King at 16 Seconds... Bound....
Laws awesome Juggle/Bound startup at 20 seconds.... impressive Wall and Bounds!!
Armor King again with another Bound at 54 seconds

The Video: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v02EPfKVGco&feature=related"

As far as balance is concerned, I think its actually quite fair, if not a bit exaggerated as far as the System is concerned. If your Skills are on par with reading your opponent, then this isnt going to be an issue. With scrubs however, thats all youre going to see. I cant wait to literally destroy would be spammers!!

Case in point: Japanese Style vs Western/American Style. You could just tell immediately which is which without even guessing. From what Ive gathered so far, Japanese Players are FAAAAAAAAAAAR more technical with better emphasis on finesse and interruption. Westerners tend to be more offensive, soaking up more damage just for the win playing off of that "High Risk/Reward" mindset. I think one of the only things we picked up from them is that constant sidestep/forward/backward footwork movement to throw off your opponent. Hwoarang showcases this incredibly well.

Thoughts on Western/Japanese Style??

-Saikoro

This post was edited by Saikoro (2009-10-08 19:50, 8 years ago)

Well it is apparent from international tournament standings and general consensus that Japanese players are in a league of their own. I agree the "footsie" movement strategy originated in Japan, but then again everything Tekken originated in Japan....Their arcade scene is the stuff of legend, with such a high level of general competition, it is easy to see why they are so much better at Tekken, and most others fighters, than the rest of the world. That's not to say that a westerner can't win, the odds are just stacked against them.

Yoshimattsu : Well it is apparent from international tournament standings and general consensus that Japanese players are in a league of their own. I agree the "footsie" movement strategy originated in Japan, but then again everything Tekken originated in Japan....Their arcade scene is the stuff of legend, with such a high level of general competition, it is easy to see why they are so much better at Tekken, and most others fighters, than the rest of the world. That's not to say that a westerner can't win, the odds are just stacked against them.

Absolutely. And "League of their own" means "Arcades are dead in the USA." Except for the West Coast at least. Its a damned shame to see arcades in the shape they are in on our own soil, but then you cant blame it. Kids want to sit in front of their TV's shouting obsceneties into a Microphone because they lack the balls to do it in person (Ive heard 12 year old english blokes swear more than I do when playing Action Sack in Halo 3). Nobody from this generation likes to be in a crowd unless if its a LAN party with people they know. Consoles cred totally destroyed the Arcade Scene, and thats surely a generational thing.

I will never forget the times when I absolutely owned at Tekken Tag at my local Time Out. Hell, Tekken 4 was just released, yet all of flocked to Tag as if 4 didnt even exist. A few of my crowning achievements, using Yoshimitsu (Of course!!) with Paul/Jin/Heihachi, were:

Having our amazingly good resident Japanese Player, Carl (Who could Chicken at a moments notice.... and Ive never seen that since), complain to me that I should use someone else rather than Yoshimitsu. Of course this came after the fact that I beat him 4 times in a row. It was 4 times, but every single match went as a Time Out or only 5% health remaining on the winner. Or both. He was easily one of the best players I ever had the pleasure of playing. For those of you who read EGM back around when the Dreamcast launched, he looked exactly like Che Chou!!

Having 50 cents last me Two and a Half Hours amassing 47 Wins in the process. I wish I had a Photo of that. This was totally epic as I was 1st on the Leaderboard until that machine was removed when the arcade shut down :(. And one dude helped me with at least 17 of them. God damn he tried hard, but he went nowhere.

Ranking in at least within the top 5 whenever I entered Tourneys. Those were the days. What kept me fron gaining the lead was my then complete lack of a low counter game. I learned of the DF Low counter by losing to a Jin player who spammed Low Spin Kicks!!

-Saikoro

This post was edited by Saikoro (2009-10-08 19:50, 8 years ago)

From my experience, Korean players are considered to be top Tekken players, but Japanese are not far behind them. However, it's not like Heaven to Earth - for example, some European players stand equal chances against them.

For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPZkRyLlcB0

Ryna Hart is generally one of the best players around.

It is true that in Tekken movement precision matters. for example, Top players always backdash with block (it's called backdash-cancel - if you only perform backdash, you're very vulnerable).

Top players are also about brilliant reflexes (they just see most moves), knowledge about the character's moves advantages and disadvantages and experience (when and how to stand from the ground, for example). Standing from the ground is extremely important and often missed in the early playing experience. I've seen a lot of okay players who were completely crushed by more experienced ones because they didn't know how to recover from the ground properly. Tekken punishes careless standing up, a lot.

Saikoro, welcome to YOT members team :)

Tenshimitsu : From my experience, Korean players are considered to be top Tekken players, but Japanese are not far behind them. However, it's not like Heaven to Earth - for example, some European players stand equal chances against them.

For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPZkRyLlcB0

Ryna Hart is generally one of the best players around.

It is true that in Tekken movement precision matters. for example, Top players always backdash with block (it's called backdash-cancel - if you only perform backdash, you're very vulnerable).

Top players are also about brilliant reflexes (they just see most moves), knowledge about the character's moves advantages and disadvantages and experience (when and how to stand from the ground, for example). Standing from the ground is extremely important and often missed in the early playing experience. I've seen a lot of okay players who were completely crushed by more experienced ones because they didn't know how to recover from the ground properly. Tekken punishes careless standing up, a lot.

Saikoro, welcome to YOT members team :)

Thanks Tenshi :D. I certainly feel welcome and I know that this feeling will only grow once Tekken 6 hits in 18 days.

And those were some impressive poking/countering skills that Ryna had (Too bad the Video Quality sucked). He had a good opponent but you could clearly see who came out on top as far as technacality goes. And thats what I love so much about Tekken's play system: Youve got literally 100's of combinations of moves to throw at your opponent on top of a solid ground related game. As much as I love Street Fighter 4 (It is good), I absolutely despise all of that freggin' jumping and poking. Thats all players really do (Even worse when n00bs/scrubs enter the fray) even though some ground game is present. And when you combine that with a player who lacks a serious Anti-Air Game (I say this because I love to use Vega.... the one with the Claw, I consider him my Yoshimitsu equivalent), youre at a serious disadvantage. Pit Vega against Sagat. Sagat has a serious advantage judging from his moveset. Looking at our favorite Iron Fist Tournament, each character has an equal change for victory. Frame Data and Move Priority vary (and that is character dependant) giving each character select Advantages/Disadvantages, but the game has a better "Down to Earth" approach with lots of room for creativity/technicality.

And a couple of things that I wanted to ask of since you mentioned them.

Backdash Cancels. How exactly do you perform them?? Ive never heard of that terminology before. Elaborate....

Standing from the Ground. Is that just a simple "Up" from your grounded position?? Please explain!!

-Saikoro

This post was edited by Saikoro (2009-10-09 13:48, 8 years ago)

Hey man don't forget about US players too. I also thought Jap/Kor players are untouchable but I found some of the Devastation tournament videos and I couldn't be more wrong. US can hold their own too I have a whole new respect for them now. Point is, not all the best players come from Japan or Korea, there are many other great players around the world.

Check these vids out. Maddogjin vs. MrNaps. I don't even have to introduce Maddogjin but I seriously thought MrNaps had no chance but... nevermind just watch.

MDJ vs. MrNaps

The US and other countries definitely have amazing players also.. All I was sayin was that the level of play is much higher in Japan. That's not to say some US or European players arent just as good or better, but just by numbers Japan and Korea have pumped out more top players than other countries. I think it's only because of the arcade scene there.. The better the players you fight, the better you become.

Grey : Hey man don't forget about US players too. I also thought Jap/Kor players are untouchable but I found some of the Devastation tournament videos and I couldn't be more wrong. US can hold their own too I have a whole new respect for them now. Point is, not all the best players come from Japan or Korea, there are many other great players around the world.

Check these vids out. Maddogjin vs. MrNaps. I don't even have to introduce Maddogjin but I seriously thought MrNaps had no chance but... nevermind just watch.

MDJ vs. MrNaps

No doubt there Grey, very good response. I should have clarified a bit more on US players.... We have good ones, just not as many as Asia's waters hold. Mah bad. As Yoshimattsu put it, the arcade scene really makes a difference. I totally wish I lived in Japan.

On a side note (As with this edit), this awesome video of Bryan/Naps shows, us Westerners focus LOTS of effort on HUGE, life leeching combos. Im not downing Nap's ability in any way, but you can clearly see his Bryan is based off of a "Destroy your opponent off a simple mistake." This may be the case for defense in general, but 90% of his wins came from an Interrupt into a huge Juggle that literally raped his opponents life away. Compare that to some Eastern vids and any victory is a bit more on the finesse side.

Regardless of what style were looking at, Naps is crazy good. Kinda freaky and intimidating good too.

-Saikoro

This post was edited by Saikoro (2009-10-12 16:13, 8 years ago)

Sadly, most of the highest level players are retarded good... We all have it in us, just need to find the inspiration to put in the months of hardcore training and get over tournament nerves. I need to accomplish all of this and master the new movelist before Evo 2010, I really hope to see at least one fellow member there!!! (Besides Sum, hopefully she'll be going with me!) I will post the dates and times of the qualifiers when they are released.

By the way, when exactly and where is Evo 2010 taking place??

-Saikoro

I believe it's the second or third week of July, and it's always in Las Vegas